Trouble with boss shooting me down and telling me to just accept things the way they are

Question

TLDR: I have been having problems with my boss wasting my time with meaningless assignments that don't have all the details necessary to complete. I also have problems with my boss telling me (every time I try to suggest proper planning) that "This is just the way things are". I have already gone to my boss's boss and we may have a meeting later today to discuss my boss and I's interactions, however, I'm not 100% sure about this.

Question: How can I get through to my boss instead of having them shoot down everything I say? How should I approach this meeting coming up?

The most extreme example:

I worked on 4 different assignments for 2 months. 2 of them ended up being completely ignored, one was given to me so late that I had to work overtime for a whole week.

When I realize that I haven't turned in anything for two whole months I tell my boss. I tell them that we could have avoided this waste if we had planned properly.

Boss's response: That's the way things are done around here.

Most recent example:

I've been working on an assignment for a month and its almost done. I go on vacation for a week and decisions are made while I'm gone. When I get back, everything I've done is trashed and I have to almost completely start over. I tell my boss that this could have been avoided with planning and asking the right questions. (Literally this whole waste of my time could have been avoided by asking a single person a yes-or-no-question). I tell them this.

I get the same response.

My boss goes on vacation for a week and a half while I work on this assignment. Before my boss leaves, I tell them this assignment is literally pointless (for those of you who know techy stuff, it is a web service that can be reduced to a couple SQL queries). Today, the first day my boss is back from vacation, we get into a disagreement about this latest assignment. I tell my boss that this latest assignment can be scrapped and provide multiple pros to doing so. I ask for any counterpoints. Get told to just do the assignment.

Answer 1

I'd say you only really have two options, if your boss isn't interested in your feedback and tells you "that's just the way things are":

1. Do exactly what your boss asks you to do, even if it seems pointless and it is likely that it'll get torn up in a couple of weeks' time. If your boss is dictating, then they are 100% responsible for any failure. If, as you suspect, your boss is making bad decisions, then I would expect that sooner or later the wheels will 'fall off the wagon' and something will fail. If that happens, then hopefully your boss' superiors will realize and will step in to address the situation (and possibly reassign your boss). Note that this may take some time - carry on working and collecting your paycheck, as usual.

While doing this, make sure to document your suggestions and interactions with your boss as much as possible, so you have proof that any failures are not your fault, and things would have worked out better if they had listened to you.

2. Consider looking for an alternative position.

Note: 1 and 2 could be done in parallel

Edit:

Some of the comments highlighted that in the transcript you originally posted, it seemed like you were being a bit disrespectful towards you boss. I think it is important to always be respectful to your boss, even if you think they are making bad decisions, which you disagree with. After all, your job is to take direction from your boss and do what they ask you to do. Also, going to your boss' boss, just because you don't 'like their style', can be dangerous, as you are effectively going over your boss' head and that may damage your relationship with them even more. If the company you work for and your boss are very set in their ways, then there is not much you can do, as an employee, to change the culture. In that case, you really have to either accept it or look for other opportunities.

From what you describe, it is possible that your boss has invaluable technical knowledge, but may not be so good at managing people or projects. This unfortunately can happen quite often. As I mentioned above, in such cases sometimes the best you can do is to just stand back and let your boss fail and hope that in future they might be re-assigned to a more technical/less managerial role.

Answer 2

I have been having problems with my boss wasting my time with meaningless assignments that don't have all the details necessary to complete.

It's not a waste of time to your boss and it's an opportunity to gain his trust to work on more challenging assignments.

If the task lacks details then ask questions, write down more details and learn how to work on your own with little direction. Before you approach him to ask more questions make sure you're prepared a list beforehand. So that you can gather more details with fewer interruptions of his time.

I also have problems with my boss telling me (every time I try to suggest proper planning) that "This is just the way things are"

It sounds like you're telling your boss how to do his job. Instead make a list of your recommendations in writing. Write the recommendations in a positive tone, be creative and acknowledge that you don't know everything. If possible, ask a coworker to review your list and ask for feedback before you forward it to your boss.

When someone says "this is the way things are done" it means that this is standard practice for the company. This could be related to the culture of the business. You shouldn't take this personally. It's not about you. He might agree with everything you say, but be completely powerless to change it. He might not tell you that he agrees. He's been there for a very long time. You should trust him. He knows how things work there. He understands the politics of it all.

I have already gone to my boss's boss and we may have a meeting later today to discuss my boss and I's interactions, however, I'm not 100% sure about this.

I'm not 100% sure about it either.

This might not go well for you. Be prepared to make an apology, but above all talk less and listen. Avoid speaking about your boss. Speak only of the process, the tasks and the planning. Say nothing negative and offer positive ideas and solutions. If you can't do that, sit and be quiet.

I'm not telling you to ignore the problems, or to feel defeated. I'm telling you that this particular meeting isn't the right time to make any demands or complaints about your boss.

Take a break from the problems. Give it a week or two to calm down. Come back to this website and ask questions about how to better assert yourself with a difficult boss. Be specific about which issues you have. Take each problem one at a time and in a while things will improve.

Answer 3

Okay several points:

1. Don't argue, DOCUMENT
2. Follow orders, but DOCUMENT
3. Raise concerns, but FOLLOW ORDERS
4. The boss isn't the boss because he's right, HE'S RIGHT BECAUSE HE'S THE BOSS

That said:

The way to approach everything is:

Present your boss with the following information:

1. What is wrong
2. Why it is wrong
3. Alternatives
4. What the alternatives are better

Then QUANTIFY

Never say that anything is pointless, because even if it's grossly inefficient, buggy, poorly documented, and inelegant BUT IT WORKS then there is a point.

Instead, say

Gee boss, I can do it "Z" way, or I can do it "X" way which I thought of. IF we do it "X" way, it will save us the need of having to update, it will be independent of "Y", and probably save the company "A" dollars per year.

Then abide by his decision without argument and save all of your documentation.

Eventually, someone may say "Why did we do it 'Z' when we could have done it 'X'?" Then you present your documentation and say

Well, I think we could implement "X" now, I had offered it as an alternative previously, so I've reasoned it all out. Would you like to see what I have?

And you've already done your analysis.

DON'T FIGHT WITH THE BOSS AND DON'T EVER ESCALATE AGAIN!!!!!

Answer 4

After reading the chat transcript, nTino, your entire premise is wrong. The boss promised web services to multiple stakeholders in the company. Your job is to implement them. Instead, you refuse to do so, repeatedly. Bye-bye.

BOSS 11:22 AM: I have already indicated that there will be webservices

ME 11:22 AM: That doesn't mean that we need to provide one

BOSS 11:22 AM: you keep repeating the same thing let us focus on the webservice and complete it that is all

ME 11:23 AM: no You haven't provided a valid counterpoint to anything I just said

EDIT: The my original answer (below) was written before reading the actual chat transcript between boss and employee, which is available by reading the previous versions of the question before recent edits. With the additional insight provided by the transcript, I have changed my answer to the above.

You working late, or having to re-do some work, is very low on your boss's list of concerns. It isn't on your boss's boss's list of concerns at all. Complaining about either of these items will get you nowhere.

From the examples you gave, they all seem to be projects that did eventually get finished and work. Which, in most companies, is perfectly acceptable. The fact that there's a better solution, or faster development, is simply not something your boss or his boss cares about. Furthermore, you're the low guy, maybe they know something you don't -- a reason why the "better" solution is not in fact, better. They would probably have an issue with a project that was a failure -- i.e. didn't get built at all or never worked properly -- but something that works acceptably? That's a success in most companies.

Now, I guess you could decide that you don't want to re-do your work, or don't want to stay late, and therefore the project won't get completed, and yes, people will certainly start to notice and ask questions. You might even get a 1-on-1 with the boss's boss. At that point, you can air all your grievances about how your boss is an idiot and the assignments are pointless and you don't like working past 5:00pm. And a few weeks later, they will kindly relieve you of all this pointless work by firing you.

Flip your perspective for a minute: how are you contributing to your boss's success? Hint: pushing back against his suggestions and direction is not helping. If you can't think of real, solid, honest answers, then you ought to change your attitude. Quickly.

Answer 5

After reviewing the transcript you posted earlier, here's how I'm interpreting the conversation:

• you suggested a change of requirements to your boss and described your rationale
• the boss said no and didn't provide a rationale in return that would satisfy you
• you continued to press the topic during later conversations, but the boss held their ground
• you became frustrated because the boss didn't accept your solution but also didn't explain what's wrong with it
• the boss became frustrated with you forcibly continuing the discussion and refusing to complete the assigned task

I can see several topics here that I'd like to address separately:

You shared your concerns and provided an alternative course of action

This part is good. Keep it up 👍 Looks like you're a programmer - sharing concerns about a spec is (well, should be) part of your work. Sharing concerns is a special case of informing people. Keeping people informed is generally a Good Idea.

In this case, you're informing about a possible alternative course of action related to this particular project. In order to make your information as valuable as possible, make sure to emphasise the expected benefits. (TBH I think you did a fine job of that - one thing I'd add is your best estimate how much of a time save we're talking about when comparing your solution against the original one.)

Your boss refused and you didn't accept the assignment

Decision making can be implemented in various ways. In this particular case looks like your boss is acting as the decision maker for this project while you'd prefer to make design decisions by consensus. This mismatch can be unpleasant for you - sorry! There might be some ways for you to affect this part of the process in the long run, but before that happens, a good course of action is to work according to the existing process. Your boss expects that you'll follow their lead and implement their decisions, even when you disagree.

The technical term for this is "Disagree and commit", look it up!

Please also bear in mind that the boss might have a reason to refuse - maybe they have more context about the project, or know some requirements (or possible future requirements) that you don't know? Ideally they would explain it to you, but this didn't happen (sorry!). Maybe they would have to go back on their word about how the project's going to look like when delivered? Maybe they estimate the communication overhead of a spec change to be larger? Maybe something else?

Yes, there's a possibility of the boss actually being wrong, but it's the boss who's accountable for the results, so it's their role, not yours, to make the call here. Your role is to give them all the relevant info you can.

_{footnote: It might make sense to veto a decision and escalate in some situations, for example when your work ethics are being violated ("I won't do this because we would lie to our customer") or if the company's interest is at risk ("if we deploy without this bugfix, all hell will break loose"). A (potentially) sub-optimal design decision is nowhere as severe in my book.}

You expected an explanation from your boss but you didn't get one

This one is not about your boss or your project - it's about you. Looks like you carry an expectation that your boss will make technical decisions in a transparent way. In a case like this, you'd like to hear why your proposal has been rejected.

I think you're being reasonable - I have similar expectation towards my boss, and it's important to me for several reasons such as:

• I need a possibility to learn while working
• I need to feel I'm respected and being taken seriously
• I'd like to have an opportunity to contribute to architecture, not just implementation

If my expectations are not met, I won't develop professionally as much as I'd like to, and I will be unhappy and less productive at work.

(You should be able to formulate your own list like this!)

In this situation, it seems worthwhile to go and say exactly that to your boss given an opportunity. This will give your boss some context and hopefully lay a foundation for some improvements to how the two of you work together.

My advice would be to avoid discussing this in the middle of a technical discussion, and instead schedule a 1-1 meeting where you can comfortably discuss your expectations towards each other and your mode of work, in a larger context than just one isolated case (just use it as an example).

Bear in mind that in such a conversation you won't be demanding things, you'll be making a request. Be kind, stay respectful, don't try to judge your boss while in the meeting. Focus on communicating your point of view and your expectations clearly.

Good luck!

Answer 6

Having read through this entire thread, especially the original chat transcript between the OP and his boss, I was surprised to see that no one had answered this question in the straightforward way that it deserved.

I am a systems architect with about 20 years of experience, and I think it's clear that the OP doesn't understand service oriented architecture and is arguing for an alternative approach without realizing that his "improvements" would undermine the benefits SOA is supposed to deliver.

And while his boss is doing a pretty poor job of explaining why they're doing things the way they are doing them, based on the tone of the post and his chat transcript, I'm going to guess that this is not the first time they've had a similar conversation and the OP either doesn't understand it or doesn't want to accept it.

But these decisions are made at the highest levels in a technology organization and it's bordering on insubordination to continue to argue for a solution that runs counter to the company's overall approach.

My suggestion is that the OP focus on doing the work he is being asked to do without arguing, and talk to more senior technologists in the organization if he needs an explanation for why they made the architectural decisions that they made.

Answer 7

I'm answering this in hopes that people stop repeating what has already been said time and time again.

Yes, the transcript paints me in a bad way. I realized that after the first person said something about it. I would like to point out that this is a single conversation and does not reflect, in any way, every conversation between my boss and I. I can understand when people say that I need to be fired, however, you are basing this assumption around a single conversation (which is understandable, because that is all I have provided).

I deleted the transcript for multiple reasons, the main one being that it provides too much personal details. Not far off from that: it paints a terrible picture of the situation.

After reading the first few answers I realized that I was not handling this situation in a pleasant manner in any way. Yesterday, I went to my boss as soon as I got to work and apologized from the bottom of my heart. My boss accepted my apology and went on about being part of a team. She was right, I wasn't being a person that was easy to work with.

Another popular assumption with answerers/commenters is the idea that my boss gave more detail than I provided. This is just plainly not true. The reason I was given was "this is the way it's done here". My boss doesn't even deny the fact that that is what they said. You can read it for yourself in the transcript.

No, I did not have another meeting with my boss's boss. I plan on telling them to not even worry about it because my boss and I have settled our differences. Yes, I realize that I made a drastic decision to bring them into this and, yes, I do regret ever saying anything to them.

Another popular idea is that this web service I was so vehemently opposed to should remain a web service. This, after further review, I will agree with you on.

Lastly, I would like to thank each and every one of you for your input. I'm not sure I would still have a job in a month if I didn't come here.

Answer 8

In Galaxy Quest (1999), our heroes turn to the side to discuss the group of aliens they've been spying on. When they look up, the aliens have disappeared, and there are murmurs of "Where did they go?" and "I don't know." One of them exclaims "Nobody was watching!?" The others give him a distinctly annoyed look.

Why is this funny? Because we all intuitively understand the frustration on everyone's part: not only the frustration of the man who was so annoyed that nobody was watching, but also the frustration of the others who are suddenly being chastised for not coming up with a plan that it's only just become clear was needed.

What's the point of all this? Hindsight, they say, is twenty-twenty.

It sounds like your frustration with the management largely stems from their poor planning. But poor planning is something that generally becomes obvious to everybody only after the thing that needed better planning has already played out. So an important question to ask here is this. Did you yourself anticipate that time would be wasted, or did you only know it yourself after the time had already been wasted?

If you are blessed with premonitions about how the project will turn out and what planning needs to be done then by all means share your insight. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say.

If, on the other hand, it's just a matter of feeling like the people above you should have known better when all is said and done, it's probably better to gain a little sympathy and a lot of diplomacy. I understand your frustration if it seems like your boss doesn't really care about the wasted time and therefore doesn't act like there's any intention to improve. But people react differently to things, and it's not uncommon for certain types of people to seem unresponsive when there's nothing they can do to fix something. These people just don't like to fret over the past. Sometimes it's better to understand that if mistakes were made then the people involved are probably aware of their faults without having them rubbed in.

It's obvious now that somebody should have been watching, so to speak. There's no need to shout about it.

Answer 9

Something similar happened to me before, and I made a bunch of mistakes in handling it. Don't make the same mistakes I did:

1) Document EVERYTHING. What is going to happen (at least this was my situation) is that, a few months down the road, you're going to have a performance review. In this performance review, your boss is going to throw a bunch of bullshit that he claims you did/didn't do at you, and most of it is going to be either straight lies or wild distortions of the truth. Then they're going to terminate you due to lack of performance. To avoid that, document everything you can. I would go so far as to voice-record (secretly) your 1-on-1 meetings or performance-related meetings with your boss, because you never know what might come in handy. If you can document enough of this and build a good enough case, you might be able to sue for unlawful dismissal (usual disclaimers, IANAL, consult legal counsel, etc). Which brings me to point 2:

2) You are on your way out the door, and no, there's nothing you can do about it. Start searching for a new job as soon as you can. Take time off from your current job to do so ("Sorry, I have an appointment", "I'm not feeling well so I have to work from home today", etc). Your boss won't like it, and you'll get a bad reputation in the management of your company, but to be honest you're on your way out the door anyway, it's not going to get much better, so may as well take advantage of the fact that you have nothing to lose.

3) In the meantime, do whatever your boss tells you to do. No, your code is not going to production. No, you are not implementing a new feature that will ever see the light of day. But meanwhile, just keep up with the crap you're getting; at this point, you're being paid for your time, not for your work, so your mindset should be "if they don't want to pay me for something useful, then they can pay me for something not-useful; either way, they're paying me". Arguing vocally with your boss will only decrease the number of paycheques you can leech off this company before they kick you out the door, and right now that is the variable you should be maximizing for with your efforts.

Answer 10

Never underestimate the willingness of the management to ignore all logic, common sense, arguments, and anything else, especially if it comes from below. To them, the fact that their will is done is worth more than any of that.

I have worked for the company where the management did not want to accept any advice or follow any common sense, even as the share price dropped from $150+/share to $3/share, and the financial carnage - in tens of billions of dollars - was a sight to behold; yet they did not change their mind, and if they did, it was only to >>their<< new ideas.

So at one point I asked myself, if such consequences did not make them want to take any advice, what chance do I have, just with my own voice, of making them hear reason? And the answer was: None.

This is nothing new. Jesus was crucified for telling the truth; the bosses (in that case, priests of that time) preferred to keep to their ways and stay in power, over listening to him even after all the miracles; and if something like that was the outcome for him, what should we, normal people, expect?

You aren't going to change your boss, or the company. Stay quiet, and start looking for another job. Once you find another job, say your goodbyes without any drama, and that's that.

Oh, and for that another job - you at best have only 50/50 chance of it being any different. The only thing you will know is the number of $ you get, as it is a number on paper. How things work there... you will only see when you start working.

Do not believe in offers that tell you that you should accept a job that pays less or equal, because they're better people to work for... in most cases it's just empty words, and not enforceable in any way.

Answer 11

The boss denies you the American Dream: hard work will not be rewarded by money and promotions because it is just wasted due incompetent management, and likely more of it is wasted if you try harder.

You may decide you do not need American Dream: work to rule and do not expect any reward beyond that is on the contract. If you think you do, you may need a company with the different culture, even if the salary may be lower. Only if you think the culture should be OK and only the boss personality is KO, it makes sense to think that could be changed in the current working place.

You are largely helpless if alone, and nothing can be done unless some basics like work safety rules are violated. They will fire you, and it will be much more difficult for you to find a job than for them to hire a replacement.

However if the boss is consistent in his unprofessional planing, it may be multiple dissatisfied people around. If the major half of the team is sufficiently pissed off, I would say, it may be time to go together to the higher boss with the clearly documented examples ready and reasonable suggestions at hand. "Team against the boss" is very different from the "single individual against the boss" and often yields to the different outcome, especially if the bigger boss already has own concerns about the work efficiency. Most important, do not go one, than after few weeks another. Go together.

Answer 12

If you say these things to your boss's boss, I suspect you may be fired for rocking the boat, so try not to badmouth him today.

Here is what I suggest:

Do not argue with your boss, try to earn his respect by the quality of your work and the depth of your technical knowledge, then hopefully you can have little discussions about the bigger picture when you are asking questions about a new task he assigns you.

You can also establish communication with the clients and ask them to clarify some of the requirements if the company allows that.

If your boss finds himself out of the loop and he has other things on his plate he won't try to inject himself back into the project