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One of the things I have found frustrating as a manager is that I get no meaningful attempt by employees to negotiate a way to stay at our organization. I randomly get notice that they are leaving and two weeks later, they are gone. Nobody seems to attempt to negotiate anymore and vast amounts of disruption happen and we lose a ton of knowledge.

I don’t want to just give raises willy nilly but if someone wants an extra 5% then I might be willing to give it to them (if they have another offer certainly). They would rather just leave.

How do I get these employees to stay when they won’t negotiate?

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    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Lilienthal Jul 6 '20 at 8:47
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    I don't understand the downvotes, the question clearly asks about the ways to try to remedy the situation, and has produced few great answers. I am not sure how is it missing an addressable goal. – Tymoteusz Paul Jul 8 '20 at 15:00
  • Em, close votes. – Tymoteusz Paul Jul 8 '20 at 15:14
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    It would still be helpful to know what, if anything, you're already doing to retain your employees and the scope of the problem. Do your employees get any kind of raises? Do you have high turnover? Do you tend to lose more experienced/valuable employees? Also, do your non-developer employees negotiate in this way? All the advice I've read says not to do this specific thing. – BSMP Jul 8 '20 at 19:51

15 Answers 15

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wants an extra 5% then I might be willing to give it to them (if they have another offer certainly).

As soon as you make me find another offer to get a raise, I may as well just find a better overall offer.

Job searching is time intensive. You need to relearn your algorithms. You need to study your Java trivia. You need to schedule interviews and find time for lengthy tests (last one I took was a 4 hour Hackerrank). You need to find and put on a nice shirt. You might need to travel.

If I am going to go through all that, why not just find something better than what I have now? Statistically (and given your attitude), you are an average employer, so there are plenty of better options out there.

Many offers are also exploding, i.e. they want you to decide when they give you the phone call. So they don't have the opportunity to go back to you.

Also, 5%? Most people switching jobs get more than that. And frankly, experience has long trained employees that their employers will not match what they get. If I got an offer for more money, I probably wouldn't bother negotiate as my organization tends to be stingy on the raises. People quit a past organization to come back two years later as that is the easiest way to get a big raise.

Magisch has another one in the comments. Some employers are vindictive and will make promises to keep an employee then punish them later.

Bluntly, you are not worth the hassle of keeping as an employer while getting a raise.

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    @devsarequitting hassle? You hired them because you had too much work to do with your current team. You aren't the type to run a charity. – Matthew Gaiser Jul 3 '20 at 7:37
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    @devsarequitting you had your chance to get something during all the time they were working for you. Clearly you wasted those opportunities. When someone has decided they don't want to work for you anymore, no, you no longer get anything. Your time has gone. – Erik Jul 3 '20 at 7:55
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    @devsarequitting the hostility you demonstrate here makes it no surprise to me that you have retention issues. – Matthew Gaiser Jul 3 '20 at 8:25
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    5 %? Almost all my job changes came with a 30 % increase. – Juha Untinen Jul 3 '20 at 11:42
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    All you said is true, but there's an additional contingent of some employers getting real vindictive and using a counteroffer as a way to stop someone from taking a new job and then making their lives miserable. That is a significant risk you just don't take without a seriously good reason. – magisch Jul 3 '20 at 14:00
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Here is the very strongly recommended process to go through when you are unhappy with your job:

Look for a better job without letting anyone know. When you receive an offer that is good enough to accept, sign a contract that is legally binding for both sides, then give your notice. Work your notice, don't listen to any counter offers, and say goodbye.

That's exactly what you observe. These people are doing it exactly right. So what do you do to keep them? When they start looking for another job, it's usually too late. By the time I look for another job, I'm mentally already gone and nothing you can do. You have to keep them before they start looking.

That means if you were willing to give them a 5% raise for staying, then you need to do that before they start looking elsewhere. Demonstrate to the employee that they can stay with you for the next 10 or 20 years and do well out of it. Listen to complaints and do something about them.

With the 5% raise after they have a new job offer there are two huge problems: One, the new job offers most likely a lot more than 5%. Second, you admit their current salary wasn't enough. They were underpaid for a long time. If you underpaid me for a long time, not underpaying me anymore is not enough.

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    Indeed. Once in their head they already left, it's too late to keep them at home. Even if they're months away from getting a new contract - it's already too late. resignation begins within the head, when it says "I have to go". – gazzz0x2z Jul 3 '20 at 13:37
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    When you offer me a raise after I give notice one of two things are true: either you a) knew I was worth more and deliberately underpaid me until now or b) you're panicking and offering to pay more then you think I'm worth. Neither is flattering for the employer or good for the employee in the long term. – magisch Jul 3 '20 at 14:04
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    "You have to keep them before they start looking." +1 also @Magisch's point is fantastic too, it doesn't feel great to continue working for an employer you know is underpaying you if you can hack it somewhere else that's closer to market rate. – user1821961 Jul 8 '20 at 17:27
  • This creates an interesting option for companies and I'm surprised they wouldn't take advantage of it, though I may be missing something. Most people I know in my field won't make a jump for under 10%. But they would definitely stay for a random 5% or even 3% once in a while to not have to deal with the hassle of the job search – Josh Johnson Jul 9 '20 at 14:16
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if someone wants an extra 5% then I might be willing to give it to them

You are working the wrong problem. People leave for a variety of reasons. Compensation is one of them, but it's rarely the main contributor and very few people leave just for a 5% raise.

The main reasons are

  1. Unhappiness with the job. Could be no more learning, no chances of development or advancement, too much grind, boring work, hostile or unpleasant environment, etc.
  2. Manager: A manager that you don't get along with or who isn't good at managing people is a frequent cause for change
  3. Compensation/benefits
  4. Other: commute, family situation, something in the personal life, etc.

If you want to fix the problem, you need to understand the reason for attrition. That will require an honest analysis of yourself and your organization and that's not easy or pleasant to do. However, it's what differentiates a good manager from a bad manager.

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    Point 4 is real, but not common. When you have a constant leak, it cannot be that kind of accidents. Point 3 is very often a secondary factor to points 1 & 2. Which are the main drivers towards the exit door. – gazzz0x2z Jul 3 '20 at 13:34
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    @gazzz0x2z: It depends on age range. In my experience, a lot of developers tend to take on different roles in the second half of their career; so you're predominantly working with a younger than average crowd (20 to 35) in your developer pool. That's the most common age range where you shift from flexible bachelor life (where e.g. overtime is a matter of wanting to) to a more inflexible family life (where e.g. overtime is a matter of actually having the time). At that shift, developers tend to value the things listed in point 4 much more than they used to. – Flater Jul 3 '20 at 21:08
  • @gazzz0x2z: Similar to the overtime example, everyone I know who went through that age range came out significantly less capable to deal with a short sleep schedule, which again is going to drive people to want to lower their commute times. – Flater Jul 3 '20 at 21:10
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Most are just leaving for more money and I want a chance to retian them and I am not getting tht.

You are getting a chance to retain them - in fact you are getting that chance every day, instead of being reactive about retention you need to be proactive. Provide commensurate pay, provide good working conditions, provide good benefits.

Of course these things all cost money to a greater or lesser extent - but so does the disruption of turnover and the hiring process. As an employer you need to balance how much you spend, and in what areas. If high employee-turnover is cheaper than making them stay then keep on as you are. But this post suggests that it's not and that you want them to stay - and you do that by making them want to stay.

The happier an employee is in their current role the harder they are to tempt away in the first place - yes there will always be scenarios where they get head hunted away and there's a big juicy offer on the table. But the more pleasant you make the environment day in-day out the less likely they are to start looking elsewhere and the more likely they are to be ignoring any cold approaches. If you don't make any attempt to retain them until after they have resigned you're showing up seriously late to the party, by this point they have already been unsatisfied for a while and have already made the decision to leave - so you're fighting against the cumulative build up of dissatisfaction and a decided course of action.

So coming from what is already a seriously disadvantaged position you need to pull something special out of the bag or it's pointless. And you aren't:

if someone wants an extra 5% then I might be willing to give it to them

I think the smallest jump in salary I've ever hand when moving between dev positions has been 13.5% - offering 5 is a joke (it's barely more than inflation!), verging on an insult. I once was negotiating with a current employer when I had another offer on the table and they offered me less of an increase than I was in line to receive and I can tell you it only confirmed my departure. I wasn't even particularly looking to leave, I'm just not an idiot.

I dont want to just give raises willy nilly

I'm not saying you need to give them willy nilly - but if you want to keep a valuable employee (who, as you say is gaining knowledge over time that is beneficial to you) you need to show them they are valuable before they get someone else willing to show them that. Give raises commensurate with performance and value to the business, and give them if not frequently at least often enough that they aren't like rocking horse feces. If employees know that they can earn more in the medium-long term by staying that sort of thing factors in when they weigh the choices, even if they aren't earning more right now.

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I've been a technical manager for more than a decade.

As everyone here has already pointed out, people that have already decided to leave and put the work into interviewing are generally going to leave no matter what you do at that point, short a truly heroic raise or other retention deal (and 5% does not fit into that category for technical professionals in the current market).

Here's the reasons I've moved jobs as a techie.

  1. Wouldn't allow the opportunity to go into management without a large # of years on the job (left for management job)
  2. Went out of business in an economic bust
  3. Had hot new skills I couldn't utilize or expand on any more at the role, was underpaid (left with a pay increase)
  4. Got fired
  5. Company bought out, new management were hateful goons (left for a pay increase)
  6. Company bought out, new management were hateful goons (left for a pay decrease)
  7. Work a bit boring, approached with great new opportunity to work with friends and get a large pay increase

Note how while some of these involved a pay increase, in few of those cases was that even part of the reason why I started looking in the first place. Heck, I took a 25% pay cut to get out of a hateful corp environment to go to a startup and work with a guy I had worked with before and get equity.

You're trying to make it about the money when people are generally leaving because they don't like the job. Not liking a job could be just about money, but it is more often about their manager, their team, their work, their opportunity.

So how do you keep developers from fleeing every time someone offers them a 10% bump? You:

  1. Make sure they are fairly compensated per the market. If recruiters can ping them on LinkedIn and any job they mention gives them a big raise, then they a) see they can get more money but more importantly b) start feeling like they're not valued, if everyone with a similar job description is paying more.

  2. Make sure they feel valued and enjoy their job. I have one on ones with every developer, hear any concerns they have, and try to find ways to have them feel like they are actively developing their skills and career.

  3. Use recognition liberally. Some management thinkers identify this as the #1 source of retention.

  4. Make sure they have tools and such they need.

  5. Other perks - fun environment, free drinks, equity...

Every single day someone comes into work the employee is recording little micro-tally marks for or against the job in their mind. Bad things get bad marks and good things get good marks, from whatever cause (weighted by how important that area is to them). Over time, if the bad outweighs, they start looking for a job. Single acts of recognition (which is what a raise is supposed to be) have trouble making up for the "every single day" factor. You're thinking of it as if they just snapped one day and just need one thing to switch back, but in reality there's a lot of straw on that camel's back by that point.

If every single day I come in and enjoy my work environment and the work I'm doing, then I merrily hit "delete" on the never-ending recruiter pings that every technologist gets.

If every single day I come in and dealing with the boss is a chore and I'm doing repetitive work and my laptop is old and the company won't replace it and I'm paid a bit less than I could be and I know it... Then after X amount of time of that building up, I start eyeing those invites.

Once the weight of the buildup has me go to the trouble of talking to recruiters and interviewing, which is not fun for anyone and requires both logistical and emotional effort, it means that realistically a large transformation in my current circumstances would be required to change my mind. And since you haven't already made those circumstances happen, your credibility in promising to make them happen is low. At this point "a bit of a raise" or even "matching the offer" are usually not meaningful, even "exceeding the offer" is likely to be rejected because it's not going to make any of the other stuff I've been putting up with better.

TL;DR Make your job a good deal for an employee to come to every day and you won't be trying to make up for it all at once.

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If a developer needs to go through a hiring process to get a raise... why would they stay at your company? At that moment they already got their raise (and probably more than 5%)/better work conditions without needing you.

Would they have to do the same over and over again each year to get their raises?

And why should they trust that you will keep your word once the they reject their job offer? It seems that these job offers are the only leverage they have for them to get raises anyway...

You are asking developers to ignore their interests just because it does not suit your needs... which probably helps explaining why they do not want to deal with you.

Treat your workers better while they are still your workers.

And of course, sometimes even if management is doing everything ok, some people will resign due to personal issues.

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    @devsarequitting loyalty? loyalty (should) go both ways... – Solar Mike Jul 3 '20 at 7:38
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    @devsarequitting It's just business. If you're trying to operate a business, it might be worth understanding what that means. Ever since employers made it clear that they are wiling to get rid of entire divisions at the drop of a hat loyalty has been non existent. You could breed loyalty by respecting your staff, giving pay rises and ensuring they're so well looked after that they struggle to justify leaving but it's probably easier to just rant on here - after all, it's definitely all those devs who are in the wrong and absolutely not you! – Dan Jul 3 '20 at 8:39
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    @devsarequitting Why would people be loyal if you don't want to pay them what they are worth? I'm as loyal as I'm paid to be loyal. Up to the last day of the notice. Staying with the company isn't covered by loyalty. (Actually, I'm loyal after leaving by not badmouthing any company I've worked for in the past). – gnasher729 Jul 3 '20 at 8:56
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    @devsarequitting, people always have and always will do what is in their best interest. If you are pining for the days when people stayed with the same company for 20-30 years, it was because those companies, either through generous benefits or lack of competition, were the best option for those people. If you want your people to be loyal, it is up to you to give them a reason to stay loyal. Otherwise, they will jump when a better offer comes. It has always been this way. – Seth R Jul 3 '20 at 17:40
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    @devsarequitting it's kind of insulting to demand loyalty from others when you are demonstrably disloyal against them as indicated by your descriptions of policy in various comments here. You seem to want an asymmetrical, abusive relationship, and it's normal for people to refuse one if they have any choice whatsoever. Trust and loyalty are hard to earn and easy to lose. If you change your behavior, paying fairly, being open and honest with employees, taking their interests into account even if it costs you, then after a few years you might have earned loyalty. Now you just reap what you sown. – Peteris Jul 8 '20 at 15:30
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If I decided to change jobs primarily for salary, I would be looking for much more than 5%.

There is an inherent problem with current employer counter-offers. The new employer has decided what they think the employee is worth, and that is more than the current employer is paying. Presumably, the current employer is already paying what they think that employee is worth. If they increase pay during negotiations they will be paying more than they think the employee should be paid, according to the employer's policies. That may result in low pay raises in the future, and a pay rate that gradually drops below market again.

Much better to go with the employer who believes you are worth the higher pay, and is willing to pay it.

If you are losing too many employees for salary reasons you should review your pay policies and ranges to make sure they match the market. You also need to look at the value, to you, of each employee with their current skills and experience, not just what you hired them at plus some limited annual raise.

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    This too. That raise could easily come out of future raises. – Matthew Gaiser Jul 3 '20 at 8:38
  • Many employers don't pay what they think the employee is worth; they pay the minimum they think the employee will accept, with an upper bound on what they think the employee is worth. That may affect future raises as now they know you will require a little more. – Diego Sánchez Jul 9 '20 at 10:54
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All the other answers bring up excellent points, however I want to add the following. Your employees might not even know you are willing to negotiate on the basis on the offer of another company. Some/many bosses don't like to negotiate on the basis of threats. I think you will to have to communicate/hint to your employees somehow that you keep your cool when they present you a competing offer.

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Why do people leave? They leave for all kinds of reasons. But let's just consider the extreme microcosm minority of people who do actually leave for compensation related reasons and dig deeper into that, because that's what you're focused on.

Let's say you have a developer who decides to leave because they aren't being paid enough, and they would like 5% more in their income, and "if only they'd ask then I'd give it to them". That begs the question: If you could pay them 5% more, and you're not, then why aren't you paying them 5% more? If you could afford to give all your employees a 5% salary increase on a whim just because you feel like it, then isn't it also that case that by not proactively doing that, then it is you who is greedy? You believe your employees are worth 5% more than they are being paid, and you can pay them 5% more without hurting your company financially, so therefore the reason you are not proactively giving them a 5% raise is, precisely what exactly? Is it not because you believe that by not giving them the 5% raise that both you can afford and also that they deserve, you are underpaying them and you believe this to be OK? And you believe it is OK and expected for an employee to work for an employer who is not only underpaying them, but also fully recognizes they're underpaying them, and furthermore to that is OK with underpaying them and is not willing to (proactively) change the status quo that they are underpaying? And you believe that the employee should have respect and loyalty to such an employer?

OK, let's start with the basics: If you can afford to give your team a 5% raise, here's what you do: Stop reading this answer, right now, walk out to your dev meeting room, call an immediate all-hands meeting, right this second (yes, RIGHT NOW), and announce to everyone on the team that, effective immediately, everyone is getting a 5% raise. See how that goes over. Will it make a difference? Probably not. 5% is not that much, it amounts practically to pennies as far as your team is concerned, and probably nobody will care. But what it will do is show your team that you're not cheap, and when the company is profitable, they will see the rewards, and that, at least, has value. It also shows that management is aware that they are underpaying the employees and will do what they can to remedy that, and that's important. Even excepting the fact that not everyone leaves for compensation-related reasons, and that the pay increase for changing jobs is usually substantially more than 5%, these things are important.

As for other reasons developers change jobs, I can point to one which is very personal to me and guides my career decisions. I have no loyalty to my company because I believe my company has no loyalty to me. I have been lied to, cheated, had my time wasted, been belittled and berated, by almost every employer I have had. I've had a raise, with gushing praise from my manager, and then a month later been terminated for financial reasons from a company whose CEO told us every biweekly meeting how successful we were. This has happened to me. Companies have no loyalty. Period. Your company too, sight unseen, has no loyalty. You can say whatever you want, but I guarantee you, push comes to shove, every single member of your team is cuttable at any time for whatever reason you want. Except that works both ways: you see all your employees as expendable, and every single one of your employees, sight unseen, sees you as expendable. Every last one of them, without exception. As much as it is a constant battle for your employees to retain their job (by performing their work to the best of their abilities and not doing anything to warrant reprimand), whether you realize it or not it is also a battle for you to retain your employees, likewise, by running your business and treating your people in such a way as to not warrant reverse-reprimand, which usually takes the form of an employee leaving. This is, by the way, not a slight against you personally; I know nothing about you or your company. This is simply how the world works and how employees look at (or, if they don't, then they should) their employers, because so many companies do this that it's safer to assume your employer is trying to screw you and act accordingly in that way than it is to assume your employer is actually trying to be cordial. And that's why employees leave, because employers are expendable.

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"Most are just leaving for more money"

Pay them more money.

You can do that whenever you please. You have two clear chances to do so:

  1. you could offer them more money before they quit
  2. if they are working two weeks notice then you have two weeks to offer them a raise

If they decline your offer then you aren't offering enough.

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    @devsarequitting - why don't you just give everyone a raise in your current organization right now that would cause you to be disappointed if they quit? – selbie Jul 3 '20 at 8:34
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    @devsarequitting - if they decline your offer then you aren't offering enough (as written in the original answer). 5% is not nearly enough at this stage in the process, as other answers and your own experience makes clear. – P. Hopkinson Jul 3 '20 at 9:51
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    Offering 5% tells them that they were right to leave. You need to offer them at least what the other company is offering AND address the other reasons why they want to leave. – user Jul 3 '20 at 9:52
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    If you only offer the raise when people already announced to quit, you have to offer a lot more than if you gave them a raise earlier. At that point their mind is set to move on, they've typically mentally cut the connection already. Plus there is a very common fear that a counter-offer will mean you will not get a raise ever again, unless perhaps you try leaving again, or that it will mean you are the first to let go, as the company thinks that you are gonna leave anyway. Sure there are companies where this is not a problem, but those I know give regular raises and don't try counter-offers. – Frank Hopkins Jul 3 '20 at 10:25
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    @devsarequitting If you're offering more money and they refuse, it's either not enough money, or not the real reason they're leaving. Given how you talk about these employees, and seem to expect loyalty purely because you deigned to allow them to work for you, you might want to look into the fact that it's not the money. – J Lewis Jul 3 '20 at 10:46
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It may be that you should make it clear that there are pay rise possibilities.

Have you asked the employees? exit interviews etc? Is there on e particular employer they are going to? ie are your employees being head-hunted?

Do you have any performance or bonus scheme in operation? If you do, does it remunerate the employees or are the mile posts unattainable?

You "randomly get notice", well do they all have to leave at the same time? They leave when they find something more interesting or they leave due to personal circumstances. If the latter, have you offered remote working for example.

Now you have noticed a trend, you need to evaluate your side before blaming them.

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  • I dont want to be open about the pay as then everyone will want it. Exit interviews just have people say "new opportunities." We allow remote work, especially now. Most are just leaving for more money and I want a chance to retian them and I am not getting tht. – devsarequitting Jul 3 '20 at 7:34
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    @devsarequitting And that is your problem. You don't want to give raises. By the time I start looking for a job, it's too late. I'm not going to stay. You don't want to give me more money, I don't want to give you a chance to retain me. You give me more money, I stay and don't even look elsewhere. – gnasher729 Jul 3 '20 at 8:54
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    @devsarequitting You have a chance to retain them every day, by paying them what they're worth (or close enough to it that it's not worth the hassle and risk of switching jobs). If you pay below-average wages then you're going to get below-average programmers. If you want to attract and retain better people, then you have to pay them better or they'll go to someone else who will. – Kaz Jul 8 '20 at 15:05
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Don't give raises randomly, give regularly to the staff you want to keep, which should be most, if not all. There should be little negotiation other than percentage and timescale. To many developers a negotiation feels closer to a conflict than a discussion, so many will shy away, not ask and instead make alternate plans. Perhaps in your management duties you have learned to follow a "game theory" like plan and if a road block comes your way, you use your skills of negotiating to bulldoze the problem. This just does not work against any technical staff I have known.

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Firstly, if somebody is leaving solely for money I guarantee they're leaving for a lot more than a 5% raise.

Secondly, once I've told my current employer that I am leaving, it becomes very risky to stay:

Maybe they'll match the offer, but deny me progression or promotions because they think I'll probably leave at some point anyway.

Maybe they'll say what they need to do to get me to stay, so they have a couple of months to go and find a replacement, and then lay me off once they do.

Maybe they'll match the offer, but continue giving me below-market pay increases going forwards, so I'll have to (threaten to) quit again in a couple of years anyway.

Maybe they'll match the offer, but give me all the horrible/crappy work nobody wants to do and generally make my life miserable.

And so on and so forth.

If you want me to take your offer, then you have to flip the risk/reward dynamics, and that requires giving me the pay rise before I tell you I'm leaving.

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    Additionally, by offering me a pay raise only after I tell you I'm leaving, you're basically admitting that you've been knowingly underpaying me all along. I expect to be paid for the value I create for you. That doesn't magically go up just because I'm leaving, neither should my pay. I now have no more reason to trust you to pay me fairly and it just cements my decision to leave. – Seth R Jul 8 '20 at 15:26
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The given answers are already good (especially Matthew Gaiser's), but I wanted to add another consideration:

If you're immediately willing to give a raise to a developer because they would otherwise leave, that inherently means that you weren't paying them what they were worth to you. There are really only two possibilities here:

  • You were underpaying them and only change your offer because it now personally affects your company; which paints you (on both counts) as indifferent at best, or as an opportunist at worst.
  • Or you were already paying them the most you're willing to offer them, which means that you won't match the better offer they just received.

Both options make you an unattractive employer when compared to the other offer. Therefore, there's no point in starting a conversation where you (as the employee) are not going to like any of the outcomes.
I suspect that programmers, as inherently logical thinkers, are more likely to spot the futility of that no-win conversation and simply skip it.

It also sets a bad precedent if it takes threatening to quit before you (as an employer) respond. If you end up renegotiating your developers' wages whenever they think of quitting, that just signals to the other developers that they too should be threatening to quit to get the raise they want.
Regardless of whether it works or not, is that really the kind of environment you want to work in as an employee?

I dont want to just give raises willy nilly but if someone wants an extra 5% then I might be willing to give it to them (if they have another offer certainly)

Put yourself in the shoes of your employee for a moment. You just basically stated that you are only willing to pay your employees what you can get away with, not what they're actually worth. That is a giant red flag for an employer where you will never be credited based on your merits.

If anything, your "if they have another offer certainly" effectively incentivizes your employees to go and find other offers even if they would rather stay with your company, which achieves the opposite of what you want (since you clearly posted this question wanting to keep your employees).

This sort of attitude reminds me of a child who doesn't want a toy until they see that someone else wants it too, at which point they only do enough to make sure they get to keep it, even if they start neglecting it once again when their ownership is affirmed.

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Nobody seems to attempt to negotiate anymore

Generally speaking it's because they can. They're professionals in high demand with skills that can be used multi-industry.

The good news is there is starting to be a glut on the market and eventually this bubble will pop like all bubbles and you'll start to get some with more of an old school work ethic.

Having said that, usually it's a minority packing bags on a whim, you may need to work on making the company a more enjoyable place to work. Also look for the more mature, married with children types. They tend to be looking for long term stability rather than perks and money.

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    Selecting employees based on age and family circumstances is likely to be illegal discrimination in many jurisdictions. – Tom Revell Jul 3 '20 at 12:42
  • @TomRevell it's just a factor to be considered like any other and perfectly ok in most of the World anyway. It's not the only factor to consider. – Kilisi Jul 3 '20 at 16:22
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    @Kilisi it's illegal to consider that as a factor at all in many places. – Kat Jul 3 '20 at 19:29
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    @Kat seems unenforceable unless someone reads minds, but moot point anyway, OP doesn't give a locale and most places it's fine. – Kilisi Jul 4 '20 at 2:22
  • Old schook work ethic without old school work pay sounds bad. – guest Jul 8 '20 at 16:07

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