Timeline for How do I explain to my mentor that certain stuff is not possible without sounding negative at the same time?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
18 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Jul 8, 2022 at 20:15 | comment | added | OpenAI was the last straw | As an extra bonus, most interns in the US at least are non-exempt, which means overtime must be paid. However, that does not mean you are entitled to work overtime and get paid. If you work overtime, you must get paid, but you may actually be violating your work agreement by working overtime without getting prior permission. If you don't fully and accurately report the hours you work, you are potentially breaking the law, but if you report working unapproved overtime, you may be terminated. | |
| Jul 8, 2022 at 19:32 | comment | added | Old_Lamplighter | @Heinzi Yeah, well, I did it to myself, so I know where to place the blame. At least I can serve as a warning "Don't let this happen to you". | |
| Jul 8, 2022 at 15:57 | comment | added | Heinzi | @Old_Lamplighter: "Don't encourage anyone to try to do those hours." I don't intend to. We're just having a technical argument about the point in time after which the "overtime actually reduces the amount of work you get done" effect sets in. I think we all agree that working too much over any extended period of time is unhealthy (and I did mention "a lot of other negative side effects" in my very first comment). Sorry to hear about your health issues! | |
| Jul 8, 2022 at 14:01 | comment | added | Old_Lamplighter | @Heinzi Just because you can do something when your young, doesn't mean that you are not damaging your body. I would put in insane hours too when I was young. MY reward was a the body of a 70 year old when I'm only in my 50s. Diabetes, heart disease, stroke, all that fun. All because "I knew I could handle it". Don't encourage anyone to try to do those hours. | |
| Jul 8, 2022 at 13:44 | comment | added | Culzean | @T.Sar the games industry is indeed a rich source of examples of crunch. However it's not a great example for the current argument. Many other games were made under very considerable crunch conditions and turned out excellent. The previous work from CD Projeckt Red such as the Witcher was also completed under heavy crunch conditions for example. When you take passion into the equation the issue becomes much more murky than simple crunch is bad. Having said that, I work for a games studio that has a no crunch culture and productivity is the highest I have seen. | |
| Jul 8, 2022 at 10:29 | comment | added | Heinzi | @gnasher729: At college, I did some serious overtime to boost my grades, and it worked out, even though I "worked" more than 40h/week for months. Not sure I'd be able to pull off something like that again, now that I'm older and have family. So, yes, that Microsoft statement is nice as a catchphrase and a general reminder to keep working hours reasonable, but it's not a general rule applying to everyone in every situation. | |
| Jul 8, 2022 at 10:02 | comment | added | gnasher729 | Heinzi, if you start with four weeks of overtime, you might get a bit more work done than without overtime, but then you have an exhausted employee, so no matter how many hours they do in the next week, they'll achieve less. | |
| Jul 8, 2022 at 10:01 | comment | added | gnasher729 | There's also a statement from a top Microsoft manager: "You can make people come to the office for 80 hours a week. You can't make them work more than 40 hours a week". | |
| Jul 8, 2022 at 9:55 | comment | added | Heinzi | @BenVoigt: Thanks, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. I guess the break-even point depends both on the individual as well as on the amount of overtime. | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 22:02 | comment | added | Ben Voigt | @Heinzi: The "overtime gets less done than normal time" aka burnout is certainly not true in one day (you've reached equal productivity before the overtime clock even starts) and probably not true in one week. For multiple years, it's definitely true. Where the break-even point is I don't know exactly; if I had to guess I'd say 2-3 months but I wouldn't be surprised to find it was only 3-4 weeks. | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 18:12 | comment | added | Heinzi | Don't get me wrong: In my company we also don't have crunches, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm just saying that the claim that "in one month with lots of overtime you will get less done than in one month with no overtime" is not generally true. | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 18:02 | comment | added | T. Sar | @Heinzi In other words: Yeah, you can get a deliverable done if you rush, but then the quality suffers and the entire software is bad. The best example out there of this is the current trend on gaming: studios that crunch usually put undercooked (looking at you, Cyberpunk 2077) messes on the market, while those that take their sweet time usually end up with pretty neat things. | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 17:58 | comment | added | T. Sar | @Heinzi companies have crunch times because they want to get something to the point it can be shipped and billed not to the point it is good. Experience tells me that most bugs and bad design decisions come about during crunch time, but that's "okay" for the companies, because they believe once the software is out of the door, those things can be patched later on, after the money hit their wallets and the client is happy. | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 16:46 | comment | added | gnasher729 | Heinzi, I somehow managed to avoid any companies with "crunch time" for the last 26 years, and they've all be doing fine. It's planning, especially in the long term, not promising what you can't deliver, and respect for you employees. | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 16:44 | comment | added | gnasher729 | Evorlor, the first study showing that was Eysenck in the late 40's, studying the arms industry in the UK. That should have been the most motivated bunch of people you could find anywhere. His results were that total productivity went down from 48 to 57 hours a week. | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 16:00 | comment | added | Heinzi | @Evorlor: My personal experience says it's plain wrong. Yes, regular overtime will be bad for productivity in the long run (and has a lot of other negative side effects, too), but there is a reason companies have crunch times, and, no, the reason is not "They are all stupid and like wasting money". | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 15:48 | comment | added | Evorlor | "Yes, in one month with lots of overtime you will get less done than in one month with no overtime." This is interesting. Is there a source I can read up on? | |
| Jul 7, 2022 at 7:54 | history | answered | gnasher729 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |