Is it wrong to manage my time in such a way that I don't have to work past 5:00 PM?

Question

I am exempt salaried in the USA, working from home. My work hours are 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM with an hour lunch from noon to 1:00 PM. While I complete all my tasks on time and receive exceptional reviews, my boss has started asking why I log off at 5:00 PM. It went like this:

I log out at 5:00 PM because the work day is 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM.

You're not an hourly wage employee and need to work until the job is done.

I manage my time in such a way that I don't typically take on tasks that would require me to work past 5:00 PM and this has never caused any issue with my projects thus far.

Well, there is always more work to do. Find something to do to stay past 5:00 PM.

I asked how long he expected me to stay and he simply replied "Until the job is done." While it's true we do have a lot of ongoing projects, we aren't behind schedule on any of them; in fact, I'm ahead of schedule on many.

Am I in the wrong here and this is a reasonable expectation? What recourse do I have here? I am a high-performer on my team and not easily replaced (it took us a year to hire one person to work alongside me); how do I convert that into leverage to work a normal 40 hour week?

Answer 1

The messages from your supervisor that you shared in your post are concerning. I would deem them to be a red flag. There is nothing wrong with not working past 5pm, especially if you perform well. If it's important to you, your current work schedule should be respected. The idea that there is always more work to do is somewhat true but it does not mean that you should work at times that are not comfortable for you. Quite the opposite! I would advise you to argue that there is no need for you to work later and that your work/life balance is important to you. If your employer can't accept your conditions, you can simply tell them that you will quit and find a job at a company that fits your needs better.

Answer 2

Like others, I don't consider your 8am-5pm schedule a problem, but a sign of good time management. The problem to solve is the relationship with the manager.

How much can you observe about the manager's work? Do they work long hours? Do they tend to start at 9 and work until 6+? Are they performing well, or perhaps under pressure themselves? Are there operational reasons that drive these hours? E.g., are there certain end of day processes, or late meetings with other timezones, or support issues, that mean they need to be available? Are there any other dynamics around availability within the normal working day? What's their preferred communication medium - phone call, face to face, email?

For example, perhaps after three hours of meetings, they've come out at 5:10pm wanting to ask you a question to clarify something. That's frustrating for them. If they have to put it in an email, will they get a reply tomorrow morning, or only tomorrow afternoon?

Think about some of these questions and gather data. The next time you catch up one to one, you can reframe the question to be about responsiveness, communication styles, and operational and support needs. Be firm about keeping your hours, but think about how you might be flexible in other ways. If 9-6 works better for both parties though, consider switching to that. Or make a commitment to always clear urgent email at 8am, before your manager comes in. Or offer to do knowledge transfer to other team members, who have a different work pattern, so it's not such a hassle if you're not at your desk at 5:02pm.

By reframing it about how you can help solve your manager's problems, you might be able to find a better solution with them, without compromising your professional and sustainable work style. At the least, it will help change the tone of the discussion from the command vs stonewall dynamic you describe in the question.

Answer 3

You need to work until the job is done.

There is always more work to do.

These two things don't add up. If you were to take that literally, you'd work 24/7. It also doesn't really make sense to say that you should work longer without saying how much longer.

But of course I wouldn't recommend telling your boss exactly that.

I would recommend:

• Avoid always leaving at exactly 5 PM.

  I usually tend to leave at around 5-10 minutes after the end of my work hours, because that's how long it usually takes to get whatever I'm working on to a good place such that I can hit the ground running the next day, and I don't have to take half an hour just to figure out where I left things.

  If someone leaves at exactly the end of their work hours, that's often (but not always) a sign that they haven't been doing anything for some amount of time before that for some reason or another, and they've just been clock-watching for a while. Another possibility is that they simply don't care all that much if they'd need to waste a lot of work time getting back to where they were.

  Now it may be that this doesn't apply to you, and that's fine. But leaving at exactly 5 PM can still create the impression that you actually stop working long before that or you don't care that much about your job.

  Whether the potential benefit of sometimes/often staying a few extra minutes outweighs the downside is something you'll need to figure out for yourself.

• Ask questions if confronted about the time you leave.

  Limit the extent to which you defend the time you leave. Get them to defend why you should stay after 5 PM instead.

  "Those are my work hours" is a reasonable argument, but it's not a particularly compelling one if they don't care that much about strict work hours. The real problem is that they don't seem to have a good argument from their side, which is what you should focus on instead.

  If you dig deep enough, the reasoning behind asking you to work beyond 8 hours is one or more of:

  • You're not getting enough work done. This should be reflected in your performance review. If it isn't, this justification wouldn't be valid.

  • You're "on call" or you need to be reachable in case coworkers need you. This generally doesn't justify working more than 8 hours a day as you don't need to be working to be reachable, and it's not reasonable to generally be reachable far beyond your working hours in any case (officially being "on call" would be distinct from this).

  • It creates a bad impression for others. This typically isn't a particularly compelling justification, but you'll have to deal with why they say this is a problem on the fly.

    The main reason why they may say this is a problem is because others may work fewer hours and perform poorly as a result. But the counter-argument is that you working 8 hours wouldn't justify them working less than that, and their performance and actions should be judged independently of yours and doesn't have all that much to do with you.

    Another possibility is that most other people work e.g. 9-6 instead of 8-5, in which case their comment is a not-so-subtle sign that they want you to work 9-6 instead (even if they wouldn't admit as much). If that's the case, you can decide how much to push back on that.

  Of course exposing the fact that they don't have good justification should be done fairly carefully, and it would only get you so far. Ultimately they may still want you to work longer even without good justification. Which would nicely bring us to the next point...

• Find another job.

  Some managers/companies just care too much about work hours, sometimes more than actual productivity.

  Those aren't particularly fun places to work for someone who values an 8-hour workday, and you wouldn't really be able to change the culture from the bottom up. But you may be able to get people to not care that much if you can perform on the same or a higher level than people who are overworking.

  If I were in such an environment, I'd stick to strictly 8 hours except in exceptional cases, not pay too much attention to people commenting on that (outside of formal performance reviews) and move on if it seems as though I wouldn't be able to be successful without overworking.

Answer 4

Am I in the wrong here and this is a reasonable expectation? What recourse do I have here? I am a high-performer on my team and not easily replaced (it took us a year to hire one person to work alongside me); how do I convert that into leverage to work a normal 40 hour week?

Apparently, your expectations and those of your boss aren't the same. You expect to be able to stop working at 5:00, your boss expects you to work later.

Your boss indicated that he wants you to work "Until the job is done." If it was me, I would have pressed for how I could know it is done. And if I felt that I was actually getting the job done when I stop at 5:00, I would point that out. If "done" meant something different, I would see if I could get to that version of "done" by 5:00. You may well hear that your boss doesn't expect you to ever be done at 5:00.

But either way, I'm guessing you have a decision to make. You can resist, stop work at 5:00, and hope that your boss will ease up. Or you can find a new job that will actually let you stop work at 5:00. If you pursue the latter, make sure you ask enough questions during the interview to ensure your requirements will be met.

Answer 5

Given that you actually care about this job and that you put some pride in finishing projects not just filling time, try to argue from a company perspective, not just your own (very reasonable) desire to have a work/life balance.

This is how I believe you should argue your point.

"I do understand that there are times when we need to step up and put in extra hours to get the job done. I have no issues making exceptional efforts in exceptional circumstances. However, I take pride in always handling normal workload during a normal work schedule. If I had to to work extra hours to handle normal workload, I would have less margin to step up when extra effort is needed."

I learned this when I left a company with a culture where overtime was regarded as a sign of loyalty and commitment to a new job with a great boss who told me "Overtime is not primarily a sign of commitment, it is a sign of poor planning. Yes, it is sometimes neccessary, since shit happens and we have to deal with it right there and then, but when I see someone working late every day, what I see is someone failing to get the job done in time every day."

Answer 6

Based on the conversation, it seems your manager is more concerned about you working "more than 40 hours" rather "past 5pm."

I'm amazed (well, not really) that so many managers are still so misguided that they believe productivity increases beyond 40 hours. There are just so many studies (going back to Ford and its "invention") that show that 40 hours is the optimal work-week for worker productivity without corresponding "adverse effects" (mistakes, injuries where applicable, etc.).

I'm sure there's a better HBR (or other) article out there, but with a few minutes of searching and reading, I came across this research on the National Institutes of Health website, originally published by the Journal of Safety Research. It honestly needs a more in-depth reading than the quick skim I gave it, but here's an excerpt:

The reported frequency of all 5 types of AEs (adverse effects) was s of AEs was significantly significantly [ironic sic] higher — 14% to 28% higher — among nurses reporting an average work week longer than 40 hours.

You might look for ways to try to subtly educate your manager on the benefits of employees working regular hours. I realize it's an uphill struggle.

Answer 7

This is a sad but incredibly common situation.

You have a manager who simply thinks that, whatever hours have been contracted for, are a license to get any extra hours he feels you somehow "owe", because you aren't an hourly wage employee.

A problem you have is that much of the work culture will be on his side, in the US. That doesn't make him right, but it makes it easier for him to feel you do indeed owe whatever hours he thinks 8-5 should really mean.

I've had this problem myself (due to medical sleep cycle stuff I often start late, end very late; my work didn't involve stuff which that was a problem for). I had a manager who wrote a "see me" memo about turning up to work at 10 instead of 9. I was essential to their project and he wasn't so secure, which gave me leverage to be extremely blunt. I emailed him back that I'd gladly watch and comply with the work hours in the morning, and "of course" in return, I expect him to be as respectful of them in the evening. Since I was usually in about an hour late in the morning, and worked 3-4 hours extra evenings, I never heard another word about it, again. Not a single word. Ever. And the performance bonuses and promotions still flowed.

I don't think that exact answer will work for you, but the principle stands. This is a manager who just wants more hours. Or doesn't understand you are efficient, or sees that and just tbinks of it as an entitlement to have more hours anyway, but efficient ones too.

You need to set boundaries. Because my sense is, he will push. So I wouldn't compromise going at 5, and agree to keep the peace, at all. One act of weakness just says that others are possible, to a manager like this. It'll become the norm and he'll be back for the next slice.

That means, not agreeing with his arguments, or conceding points suggesting you could give in.

I'm not an hourly wage person, that's true. I'm an 8 hourly day person. HR and I contracted that you will get my absolute best efforts for 8 hours a day. If you aren't happy that you have my best efforts, please explain, help me improve, or fire me. If you have my best efforts, and you want more hours, then that's a change of contract. Its not something HR asked for, or I offered. We can discuss it, but it needs to be clear, that you're asking me to do extra for free. That doesn't work with any professional, and I don't see why it should be expected of me.

This is pushy - but so is he. Either way he won't like it, but I don't think you have any option he will like other than rolling over and asking however many hours week he would like, and licking his shoes. So I start from an assumption that you will have to draw a line that fundamentally, he won't accept easily or like you for. You'll either succeed, or fail, to set and hold that line. You don't have a way to so it that doesn't involve conflict of some kind. So, unfortunately, I accept that is likely too, and not a deterrent.

If you're good and he knows you are good, then you won't be at risk from being that forcefully assertive. Challenge his assertion that its your job to provide free extra hours, and push back with your own perspective. No other professional would. Nor will you.

Answer 8

Your boss sounds like an A-hole to be quite honest. If I was you, since you're working "online" just don't logout at 5pm. Stay logged in for a while but dont do any work. Problem solved.

If you really want to push it, since you said it would be hard to replace you, you could also just tell your boss "no". No, I'm leaving at 5pm. You've been way to polite to him already from the sound of it and he doesn't care.

Answer 9

Check your contract

My contract states

"You may be required to work such additional hours as may be necessary for the proper performance of your duties without extra remuneration"

This basically means that my boss absolutely can demand I stay longer if they feel it's necessary

But if you're getting the work done and on schedule, there's no reason you should need to stay beyond your contracted hours!

I would examine the wording of your contract, and then bring it up with your boss.

Answer 10

Make it a point to be aggressive in the way you deal with this. The last thing you want in these circumstances is a manager of the sort you're describing thinking they can tell what you need to be doing do past your contractual working hours. This is a major red flag and indicative of a manager who is assessing the waters, seeing how far you're willing to bend and how much work he/she can extract from you. The harder you put your foot down, the faster they're going to realize that this tactic won't go anywhere and the sooner they'll remember just how much they need you.

Answer 11

First off, I would simply do nothing in the short term, and continue to work as I have been doing.

I would make the assumption that the boss was confused about how much work was getting completed, and when the discussion was going on, the felt painted into a corner and had to double down.

It's very possible that simply pretending the conversation took place gives your boss an opportunity to back down without losing face.

Just about any other option is likely to escalate it. In some of these situations you may get what you want in the short term, but it may result in additional workload getting assigned, or some other types of vindictive response.

So allow them to make the next move, and if they persist, then look at one of the other answers here.

Answer 12

Lots of others have already covered this ground, so what I hope to add to this is a more streamlined train of thought on this.

First and foremost, double check your employee handbook or equivalent guide book. This prescribes what the work duties are of employees, and what the expected working hours are. Being exempt only means you can't collect overtime pay, not that you are expected to work overtime.

Second, establish what extra work there is with your manager so that there is a clear expectation of the work that exists and that it is within your job duty to complete it. Just because there's "work" to be done doesn't mean that you can do it, or should be on the hook for it.

Third, document everything. The conversations about why you're not working past a specific time if/when there is no purpose to do so are enough to warrant a friendly visit to HR.

Fourth, escalate the matter to their superior. If your manager doubles down on why you're not working past 5PM, and previous conversations with your manager about work expectations have failed, referring the matter to your boss' boss is an uncomfortable but practical next step. Bring your receipts.

Fifth, escalate to HR if everyone's decided to disregard the handbook and is setting new or unrealistic expectations. Be sure that what HR is saying aligns with what you are doing and, of course, bring your receipts.

Lastly, look for a new job if the sentiment of this employer is that you are expected to work more than 40 hours per week on a regular and ongoing basis. Your time is your time and only in explicit and well-defined circumstances are you obligated to give more than that.

Answer 13

Aside from the good answers so far:

Your boss has a reason for asking. It might well be that he is getting pressure from somewhere. If you have a good relation and want to be less confrontational than some answers suggest, you can try to figure out what that is and maybe find another way to address it.

For example, it might well be that some beancounter is looking at working times and all that's really needed is that you log off twenty minutes later, even if you don't do any work in that time.

This requires a bit of tricky social stuff and might not be your thing (definitely isn't mine, I'm better at playing armchair employee here than actually doing it).

Answer 14

You're not an hourly wage employee and need to work until the job is done.

This is probably the lamest management excuse in the book - and from my point of view it would be an excuse for you to leave.

In some cases (eg. programming) the "job" in many cases won't bee done in a day or in a week. Your boss cannot expect you to work 24/7 until a job is done.

A good way to combat this in a gentle manner, would be to ask if there are any problems with previous work you have committed. A good rebuttal for the following would be.

Well, there is always more work to do. Find something to do to stay past 5:00 PM.

Are there any problems with the projects I should know about?

or

Have someone been asking for me after 5 PM?

In this case you actively inquire about your tasks, and also (subtly) ask for a reason to remain at the desk.

Personally, i've had to pull the answers out of managers in the same way, and found out the reason behind the order. Maybe others on staff have been looking for you or there is a problem that is being kept silent from you.

It's a good way to see of something can be changed or optimized, such as an alternative arrangement of work hours - however it's also a good tool to uncover an overexpectant manager that is only willing to pay for 8 hours of work, but wants you to work for 10.

As a personal example, I work towards a "clean table" whenever possible - ie. I try to leave work every day (and every week) with as few loose ends as possible. Sometimes that results in leaving 10 or 30 minutes later.

However, if you get your planned work done by 5PM - that is how it is, then again if there are any loose ends in that your manager is concerned about, asking him is the best way to do so.

If your boss - even after repeated questions like the above - still falls back to "find something to do" and "there is always more work to do" without ever giving proper reason, it can be interpreted that he is "just" of the type that wants to eke out as much work as he can to make himself look good.

Answer 15

There's a good answer already. My addition would be to give a firm reason for stopping at 5. I would cite personal obligations like prepping food for the kids or anything really.

Then I'd add that if there was any work that needed to be finished (which there isn't yet) I'd log back in later and complete it. But 5PM is a firm stop time.

If the boss has any issues with this then they're being unreasonable on purpose, and it would be time to think over your options.